Service & Maintenance Question
I am having issues with my 440 chainsaw. First some...
Service & Maintenance Question posted April 26, 2015 by Benjamin Pister
249 Views, 12 Comments
Question:
I am having issues with my 440 chainsaw. First some background.
I bought it new and have been using this saw for two years for cutting up firewood. Pretty much from the beginning it has not started as easily as I think it should. There is a primer bulb that is supposed to be pressed 6 times. I have found it requires around 30-50 presses to be effective.
Last summer the saw would often stall if I left it idling for more than about 20-30 seconds. Last fall when I used it last the engine sounded funny. A relatively knowledgeable friend of mine said the carburetor needed adjusting. So, over the winter I took the bar and chain off, cleaned out the saw dust and gunk as best I could, cleaned the air filter, cleaned the spark arrestor, replaced the spark plug, lubricated the chain sprocket with grease and the needle bearing on the clutch drum with engine oil. Put it back together to adjust the carburetor, and I could barely get the thing started. When it would start it would only stay running for about 15 seconds. And when I could press the trigger, the engine would not rev and the chain wouldn't rotate. I assumed this was carburetor issues, which I tried to solve by adjusting the screws, but no luck. I assumed I just didn't know what I was doing with the carb adjustments.
Took it to a local small engine repair place (nearest husky dealer is 125 miles away). Mechanic got the carburetor adjusted for me, but says there is very low compression and the piston ring looks gummed up. Says this could be caused by old gas that evaporated some and got too rich. I did use gas from last summer. It sat in a can over the winter, outside. I live in Alaska, it gets cold. So the gas was probably 6-8 months old. Mechanic also said it could be bar oil that got in the gas tank (I kind of doubt I did that), or something similar. And that maybe running a leaner mixture of gas, like 70/1 or 80/1 would help. But he didn't sound optimistic.
But I am also reading in the forums that lubricating the needle bearings should be done with grease, not engine oil. The manual said engine oil. Is there an issue here? Could that have caused the piston rings to get gummed up? I drizzled many drops of 2-cycle engine oil right on the thing while spinning it like the book said.
And why did it take 30-50 pushes on the primer bulb to get the thing started?
The big question, is this something that will cost me as much to fix as buying a new saw? (Local guy thought so and said he would have trouble getting parts as he was no longer a dealer). Do I cut my losses? Do I buy a new saw and then try to fix this one in my spare time with after market parts? Any advice is much appreciated.
I bought it new and have been using this saw for two years for cutting up firewood. Pretty much from the beginning it has not started as easily as I think it should. There is a primer bulb that is supposed to be pressed 6 times. I have found it requires around 30-50 presses to be effective.
Last summer the saw would often stall if I left it idling for more than about 20-30 seconds. Last fall when I used it last the engine sounded funny. A relatively knowledgeable friend of mine said the carburetor needed adjusting. So, over the winter I took the bar and chain off, cleaned out the saw dust and gunk as best I could, cleaned the air filter, cleaned the spark arrestor, replaced the spark plug, lubricated the chain sprocket with grease and the needle bearing on the clutch drum with engine oil. Put it back together to adjust the carburetor, and I could barely get the thing started. When it would start it would only stay running for about 15 seconds. And when I could press the trigger, the engine would not rev and the chain wouldn't rotate. I assumed this was carburetor issues, which I tried to solve by adjusting the screws, but no luck. I assumed I just didn't know what I was doing with the carb adjustments.
Took it to a local small engine repair place (nearest husky dealer is 125 miles away). Mechanic got the carburetor adjusted for me, but says there is very low compression and the piston ring looks gummed up. Says this could be caused by old gas that evaporated some and got too rich. I did use gas from last summer. It sat in a can over the winter, outside. I live in Alaska, it gets cold. So the gas was probably 6-8 months old. Mechanic also said it could be bar oil that got in the gas tank (I kind of doubt I did that), or something similar. And that maybe running a leaner mixture of gas, like 70/1 or 80/1 would help. But he didn't sound optimistic.
But I am also reading in the forums that lubricating the needle bearings should be done with grease, not engine oil. The manual said engine oil. Is there an issue here? Could that have caused the piston rings to get gummed up? I drizzled many drops of 2-cycle engine oil right on the thing while spinning it like the book said.
And why did it take 30-50 pushes on the primer bulb to get the thing started?
The big question, is this something that will cost me as much to fix as buying a new saw? (Local guy thought so and said he would have trouble getting parts as he was no longer a dealer). Do I cut my losses? Do I buy a new saw and then try to fix this one in my spare time with after market parts? Any advice is much appreciated.
Answer
Appear to have a ZAMA C1T-EL41A Carburetor
It sounds like the main issue was a fuel delivery issue as that primer shouldn't take that many pushes to clear the air from the carburetor.
Putting oil on the clutch housing bearing has nothing with the rings gunning up. If your using marine 2 cycle fuel oil to mix your fuel then that maybe the problem.
Personally if the tech thought the rings were gummed up why didn't he clean it and the piston? I think you need to find a tech that actually know what they are doing and that is not afraid to go into the saw's engine if needed.
The carburetor is available thru Amazon at a fairly reasonable price for this saw. There is several online vendors that sell the parts for this saw. A couple is http://baileysonline.com/ and http://www.jackssmallengines.com/
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Benjamin,
I think I would try a couple of things before giving up. First get a spray can of "LMT" (Lawnmower Tune-up) spray available at most big box stores and also some mower shops, price around $3 - 5.00. Follow the directions on the can but do not put as much as in a lawn mower, only about a 2 second spray into the sparkplug hole. Give the chainsaw about a half a pull and then let the chainsaw sit overnight, It cleans the gum and carbon out of piston rings which could be your problem, so its worth a try.
Next, I would replace that primer bulb, they are usually around $5 - 8.00 and available On-line thru mail order catalogs. Just make sure you Order the correct one for a Model 440, they are very easy to replace, especially when you have the new one in hand, If you need help changing it, I will be glad to write the procedure for you, but its easy.
Anyhow for maybe about $10.- total you will have your chainsaw running properly.
Last resort as Eugene' suggested, I would replace the carburetor, especially since you had trouble from the beginning, But I definitely wouldn't discount it not being the primer bulb, since there is a small check valve inside the primer bulb, and If that is not working correctly it will give you the symptoms of carburetor problems, but its really just that the primer is leaking back to the tank, and not staying in the fuel pump circuit.
If you need help, just give a shout, and I will be glad to help.
Karla
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Hi Karla,
Well, this took awhile. Turns out LMT isn't that easy to find in Alaska. I am sure there are similar products but I try to follow instructions. I also replaced the bulb.
So this evening I tried starting the saw and it seemed easier. And every time I got it going it run a little longer and the chain would move a little faster. But still not very fast. Lots of blue smoke. At this point I am wondering if I should repeat the LMT treatment a couple more times or if it's already done what it's going to do. I can't help but wonder if I pulled the starter cord enough to get it into wherever it goes from the spark plug hole.
I would like to start gathering my firewood for the winter soon. So I will probably buy another chainsaw soon (a Stihl this time) and continue trying to repair this one until I decide I don't want to sink more money into it. Is cleaning the rings and the piston way beyond a curious amateur?
Thanks
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Thank you Eugene and Karla. I'll give those suggestions a try and let you know how it turns out. Time to role up the sleeves ....
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Benjamin,
Yes - you can re-do the "LMT" treatment, you should let the engine run for a few minutes and rev the engine a little until all the smoke goes away. As far as turning the engine over when you put the "LMT" into the engine, you only need to pull on the cord for about a 1/4 of its full travel or maybe 5-6 inches of cord, it just insures that your getting the "LMT" into the pistons ring groove, you really don't need any excess down in the bottom of the crankcase. Also give it a good amount of time to work, even spraying "LMT" into the piston and letting it sit overnight is not too long.
Also, Sorry to hear you had difficulty finding the stuff, there are probably similar engine products that will break down carbon but not sure which ones or what there names would be. I do know that some small engine mechanics use a homebrew mix of 50% Transmission fluid to 50% mix of Acetone (available at some paint stores), I believe the homebrew mix may be more aggressive, and I believe it does have a limit of how long to let it sit, like maybe 15 minutes or less. I have personally never tried the homebrew stuff, but those that have said it really cleans the carbon out of engines. You may be able to google cleaning gas engines and find more specifics.
I hope this helps, and If the engine speed doesn't come back up then you may have worn rings, and need to replace them. Carbon is really hard stuff, maybe harder than steel thats why carbon causes so many problems like scored piston rings, cylinders, and pistons. Oh, and an easy check to see if the carbon is gone is simply remove the muffler, and look around the exhaust port of the cylinder and see if there is any carbon. If the "LMT" is working it will actually break the carbon down, and you will see that at the exhaust port too. In- addition, If you use a small strong flashlight and look into the spark plug and see the top of the piston,( which is not the easiest to see) you should see the carbon coming off of that too.
Karla
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Benjamin,
In-addition, Don't give up, I believe the Model 440 is a really nice chainsaw and working correctly with a sharp chain it should cut like crazy, its a nice small size chainsaw, maybe Not the best If your really doing alot of logging and firewood cutting, I would probably go with something a little bigger like a 60-70 cc engine.
Oh some good news for you, I am in the process of acquiring a broken Model 435 which is the sister chainsaw of a Model 440, same carburetor, housing, starter, clutch, as yours just a few cc's smaller in engine displacement. Its due to arrive this week, and since its broke or the owner is selling it because it won't start, I will be dis-assembling it completely, and doing some forensic diagnostics and analysis on it. I will also then be able to duplicate your problem possibly and have a better handle on how to help you better to fix yours. So stay tuned, and give me an update on yours.
Karla
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Karla,
Thanks for your help. I will definitely keep trying. When the saw was running okay, it did cut well. I probably need it to chop up about five to seven cords of wood a year. I am not sure if that is "a lot" but I am guessing it's not really. And I like the idea of learning about how these small engines work. A friend of mine keeps telling me that fundamentally they are rather simple engines.
I didn't try anything new tonight but did repeat the LMT treatment (I'll stick to that for now). I'll start it tomorrow and let it run as you described. Then I'll see about removing the muffler.
Benjamin
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Benjamin,
Did you resolve your problem with your model .440 ?
I received the sister chainsaw to your model 440, which is the Model 435. Everything is the same with the exception of the cylinder size, which gives your chainsaw a little more power.
Anyhow, I did the typical troubleshooting and at first it seemed like the engine was flooded or flooding from the carburetor.finish
I will finish this in another post,
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Benjamin,
I cleaned my carburetor, and found that didn't fix the problem, and the engine will flood very easily. Anyhow, My next symptom was no spark, I replaced the ignition coil and my Model 435 now runs like a champ, it did smoke for about 2 minutes till it cleaned out the excess fuel in the engine, but it now starts on one pull very easily, but again it seems symptomatic to easily flooding, I can usually start the engine without ever putting it in the choke position, or put it into the choke position, pull it once then switch to the run position and it starts right up. I am letting the engine cool down and tonight, I will try a cold start and see how easy it is to start.
Anyhow, The reason I mention that I now have a duplicate chainsaw to yours, I may be able to duplicate your problem on my chainsaw, and see If I can fix it. I also have been doing lots and lots of reading about the Model 435 /440 chainsaws, So I an getting alot more familiar with the symptoms of these chainsaws.
Let me Kow If I can help or If there is something you want me to try on this chainsaw.
Hopefully you have fixed your problem.
Karla
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Benjamin
I bought the Model 435 to tinker with, and it was priced for parts, so it was a great deal, and now its running for the price of a $26,- Ignition coil. Too funny, tomorrow I will tweak it up a little more, check the RPMs with my Tach and take some temperature readings but it sounds really great. Oh, I'll probably cut some wood with it tomorrow too. Oh, I did do a cold start tonight, and just two pulls and its running, I really like this saw that someone threw away. Lol.
Don't throw your chainsaw away, lets figure out what is wrong with your model 440
Karla
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Hi Karla,
I am finally getting back to my saw. I was on a work trip in the back country for several days.
So I started my saw this evening. At this point it's been several days since I sprayed the LMT in the piston. It started relatively easy. And the chain started slowly turning (I figured this just meant the idle still needed adjusting). There was a little bit of smoke, which went away after a minute or so. It seemed to run okay, until I pushed the trigger. It pretty much stalled right after that. I could get it restarted without too much trouble. A pull or two only. But after a minute or two, as I pulled the trigger just a little, it sounded like there was a brake being applied to the engine. The idling would slow down, and the saw would stall. The exact opposite of what is supposed to happen. I had to keep priming it every other start, or so. And after a few starts the saw would stall in less and less time, though I was still able to start the saw fine. Another thing, the chain no longer turned on it's own by this point. So I am thinking the carburetor is next. Is it easy to get off? I forgot to examine that before I stopped for the night. Should I try to clean it somehow or just replace it?
Also, any hints on how to get the muffler off? I wanted to look inside and see if that carbon you spoke of came off. I didn't see any obvious way.
Thanks for the encouragement and help. I'll feel really good if I can fix this.
Benjamin
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Benjamin,
E-mail me directly at "Woodsies5@comcast.net", and I can send you some pictures from my Model 435 which as I stated before is Identical to your Model 440, I will also include directions and assembly removal Instructions. Ie. Muffler, Carburetor, Etc. The Posts here do not allow multiple pictures, and the text that I have is fairly lengthy, so it will be easier doing direct E-mail. However, If you can't do direct E-mail, then we can still figure out something here.
The muffler is very easy to remove, and the carburetor is a little more of a challenge due to having to remove the air cleaner and controls for the carburetor, and requires finesseto carefully remove the plastic parts. I have already done both to my Model 435, so I know I can help you get it done.
Karla
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